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this whole thing is just so fuckin horrible
if you don't want to be severely bummed and depressed the fuck out don't listen to the 911 calls
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watch captain douche had called the police something like 100 times in the last year.
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Disgusting. Is that what Dayton vetoed?
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this is a fucking heartbreaking story and dude needs to be arrested for murder asap.
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"neighborhood watch captain" should have been in quotes.
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Is that what Dayton vetoed?
I don't know the details of each, but by the sounds of it, yes, the Florida law is similar to the bill that actually passed through both houses of our state house, which is sickening enough.
I have a pretty high tolerance for this kind of thing but I haven't been able to bring myself to listen to the police calls.
Every day that goes by that this dude hasn't been arrested is a travesty. He's caught, on tape, admitting that he was chasing after him, not defending himself.
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I'm kinda disturbed even reading this thread without looking in to the story. I'm afraid to learn about this, honestly.
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it is fucking gross
the killer has displayed all sorts of dangerous loose cannon behavior for years and the police & his parents still let him keep up his little neighborhood watch charade
and now someone is dead
and they've done a piss poor job of trying to cover it up
the murderer, his dad, the investigating officer, and the police chief should all see the inside of prison cells
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HOW IN THE FUCK IS HE EVEN FREE ATM?
Poor kid was fucking UNARMED?
Gee, why are lots of black people still pissed and fucked up and resentful in this country?
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He was holdin' alright... some skittles and a can of iced tea from 7-Eleven.
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Because there is a law in Florida that says it's legal to defend yourself with deadly force whenever you feel threatened.
And even more so because Florida is corrupt and racist as fuck. Although I believe the gunman is hispanic.
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OH, Latinos aren't supposed to be racist?
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cops said they
a. did not test him for booze/drugs (as is protocol in homicides)
or
b. arrest him
because he was a criminal justice student with a clean record.
keep it classy, cops.
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No, but it might have put some Floridians in a tail spin trying to figure out which one was guilty.
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DUDE RACISM = PREJUDICE + POWER, BRO!
DID WE LEARN NOTHING FROM THE 90S?
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and people who study criminal justice...you know, like cops, are NEVER racist or cowboy dickheads.
that, my friends, is a medical FACT.
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Eeeeeeexxxcept he didn't even have a clean record.
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and it turned out that his record was only technically clean, he had a resisting arrest charge that was expunged from his record.
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what slee and uncle jam said.
ACAB 4EVR
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what in the fuck?!?!?! Every cop involved should lose their job. Jesus.
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teddyruxpin
3/19/12 4:08 PM
what in the fuck?!?!?! Every cop involved should lose their jobbe shot in the fucking face. Jesus.
FYP
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I'm surprised no one here has made the ne crime watch comparison yet. Sound familiar?
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I think that reality is too scary to even think about. But yeah. Sigh.
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I wonder how much longer before someone "feels threatened" by this killer.
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Well, if you're black, it's a pretty reasonable argument.
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There has to be a good shot at a federal civil rights case. Has to be.
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Sad thing is, our AG and Governor are sitting on their hands because they do not want to appear weak on gun rights. Really awful.
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they should be in prison cells shot in the face too
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bullets in the face for everybody!
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for a minute i thought you were quoting RATM
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squrrrrkkweeerrkksqurkeee
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bwananadanadanadanadanada
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UNHHH
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The Trayvon Martin Killing Murder
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I was wondering when someone was going to bring up the Northeast Crimewatch page. The Trayvon Martin murder seems like a logical, not-too-far-fetched extension of that kind of paranoid racist bullshit.
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I can't even imagine what the kid's folks have gone through with this. Incredibly dark shit.
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The plot sickens.
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I gotta say I'm ok with the self defense laws.
But this case is not a case of dude being within the boundaries of that law. He disobeyed the 911 operator, he may have been drunk</a> which TOTALLY negates any gun carrying laws..... and everything else everyone has talked about. You can't start a fucking fight and claim self defense.
and this:
<i>boris parsley
3/19/12 8:13 PM
There has to be a good shot at a federal civil rights case. Has to be.
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haha bad italics.
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princelumber
3/20/12 4:11 PM You can't start a fucking fight and claim self defense.
Except that it seems like the way the FL law is written, you can.
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generally, you can use self defense when you started a fight, only if the other person escalates it. like, you're using fists and the person you started the fight with pulls a gun, or you're leaving the situation, and you get chased and attacked. and the only time you can use deadly force is if you're faced with deadly force. so is it that the florida law lets you use deadly force even if that's not what the other person is using?
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i've only followed this a little bit because it depresses the hell out of me.
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The Florida law puts the burden of proof on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was *not* self-defense. The prosecutors in this case have already said they don't think they can do that. Which I equate with saying this guy can start a fight, with an unarmed person, shoot him, and successfully claim self-defense.
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exactly. this law is needlessly broad.
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they may not get him for murder, but you'd think there would be something they could get him on.
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yeah, you'd THINK so, huh?
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well, if it wasn't Florida, anyway.
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Don't worry, you'll have your chance to shoot someone soon. A bunch of states have passed/are trying to pass identical statutes.
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(not a dig at you)
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Remember a few years ago in Texas some guy shot and killed someone who was coming out of his neighbor's house because he assumed that he was a burglar, and got off? Can't remember if he actually was robbing the home or not, it's not really the point, which is that you shouldn't be able to shoot someone to protect someone else's property when you're in no apparent danger yourself.
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feeling like you are so important - and by extension so in danger that you feel the need to shoot people seems to require a level of self-involved narcissm that is foreign to me.
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Same, but so is the idea of even owning a gun for protection.
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A bunch of states have passed/are trying to pass identical statutes.
Thank you ALEC.
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yeah. i don't mind target shooting. it's pretty fun.
i do it sometimes at my parents' place.
not interested in owning a gun. never lived anywhere sketchy enough to want one.
would absolutely rather have shit stolen than know i killed a human.
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shooting people to protect property is like promoting gun ownership to increase safety: Fucking Dumb As Shit
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heh.. that doesn't make a fucking ounce of sense, but 'tevs. I'm sure you don't own property or guns.
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I don't think he means land when he says property, dogg
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what's your point?
that if i owned a gun and land i would feel the need to shoot people?
that doesn't make an ounce of sense
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If someone tried to steal all my blu-rays I'd hit em with the dull samurai sword in my house is that cool?
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shane shiner
3/21/12 11:57 AM
If someone tried to steal all my blu-rays I'd hit em with the dull samurai sword in my house is that cool?
Should've been in the Home Alone thread.
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there's no need to shoot someone unless you're a maniac, but I like where the laws are right now in this state. sorry. I already said this florida case is fucked, it's not the fault of the law...
Shane, srsly, don't be a fucking dick.
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i think the law being overly broad is, indeed, a contributing factor to the clusterfuckedness of this case.
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lol. how can it not be 'the fault of the law'--the law is the very problem in this case, clearly.
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also, shane is poking fun at the mentallity of gun nuts, not gun owners.
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to reiterate:
J Low
3/20/12 4:39 PM
The Florida law puts the burden of proof on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was *not* self-defense. The prosecutors in this case have already said they don't think they can do that. Which I equate with saying this guy can start a fight, with an unarmed person, shoot him, and successfully claim self-defense.
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there are upwards of 15 nerf guns in my home, guys, I'm the last person you'll find disparaging gun owners
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ok I totally understand that, I just feel like due process was not served, i.e. no alcohol test, disobeying the 911 caller, etc.
jesus christ people this is florida we're talking about.... It's all sorts of fucked up down there. Take a step back and realize the same shit doesn't fly here. It just doesn't. This state has a semblance of sanity involved in the government, I pray.
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hahahahahhah
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that was to shane's nerf guns comment
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Worked either way.
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yeah, the law certainly isn't the ONLY contributing factor.
this is just a perfect storm of failure.
the no alcohol test thing seems especially insane
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Had Tom Emmer found just a few thousand votes under Tony Sutton's gigantic bed, that same shit would've flown here.
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if only he had been applying for food support then he would have been drug tested
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as far as the same shit not flying here.....the bill Dayton vetoed had a similar 'stand your ground' clause, no? I believe it basically would have extended the home/castle doctrine thing to a person's general vicinity, which is not unlike the FL law...
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yeah, there's no reason why this couldn't happen in minnesota. it's not like there's some essential characteristic to this state that wards off right-wing politics. michelle bachmann is a pretty clear example of that. pawlenty and other 'moderate' republicans would probably support such a law, also.
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Jeb Bush signed this law and he's every Repub's dream to replace loser-mItt.
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I wasn't really talking about the difference in the laws between states, I was talking about the fucked up people in Florida, believe it or not, I have some faith in humanity, but not for Florida.
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"Minnesota will never be Florida"
"80 degrees in March? Aww yeaH!"
THE SIGNS WERE EVERYWHERE
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I'm curious: what is the reason they mandate the alcohol testing for homicides? Or is it for all felony-esque offences?
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neight, there is no amount of news stories you could post to get me to compare the two states.
Rux:It's illegal to use a gun while intoxicated when you have a conceal/carry.
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gotcha.
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What's crazy to me is that it'd seem that as long as there's no witnesses to a killing, you can claim self defense and get off. I'll assume that a guy abducting and killing kids wouldn't be able to pull it off, but outside of things like that, that's a huge door to leave open for murderers.
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but I just thought it's always been like that, like since caveman days. And The Walking Dead....
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Traditional self-defense assumes the assailant made reasonable attempts to flee and, failing that, had no choice but to kill the victim. The Stand Your Ground law (which is what FL has) removes that assumption. In other words, since one doesn't have to flee first, self-defense is easier to claim.
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I would say there are a number of things you can do with a gun when you feel threatened short of KILLING SOMEONE
"Justifiable homicide" is bullshit
Either you can't kill people, or you can't.
If it was self-defense, use that in yr manslaughter trial!!!
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thanks for making that clear, Burrito..
I was listening to Rosenbaum on Barreiro a while back and he talked a lot about minnesota's law, basically he dismissed a lot of the hype on these laws, saying we already have a lot of this stuff in place. I didn't catch the whole thing though, or that there was a FLA connection.
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I think what's really infuriating about this is that they didn't even take Zimmerman into custody (drug/alcohol test?) after the shooting. It's my understanding that if a cop shoots someone in the line of duty they take their gun, & are immediately placed on a mandatory suspension while there is an investigation. They have 72 hours to hold a suspect before pressing any charges, plenty of time to keep this murderer under observation and begin their investigation.
my understanding is they let him go home from the scene. !?
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seriously, that's what went down!!
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I hear there was a high five somewhere along the way.
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Here the Florida law as written:
"A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."
Of course, what's wrong here is that the person most likely to contradict any testimony regarding a claim of self-defense is, by the time of inquiry, DEAD. I like Rosenbaum but he's wrong on this one.
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and, as jlow pointed out, it misplaces the burden of proof
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If it wasn't a high five I'm sure there were some winks..
"We'll take care of it from here." wink wink
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I call those EYE FIVES
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Winks should only be discharged in sexxxy ways.
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shane did you just make up eye fives, cuz that's kind of genius...
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I did ;)
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In defense of Zimmerman, Skittles are a deadly weapon.
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waste the rainbow
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haha this thread just got funny after bein all serious and shit.
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princelumber
3/21/12 12:37 PM
neight, there is no amount of news stories you could post to get me to compare the two states.
"florida is worse than minnesota" =/= "it can't happen here"
because it can
and does
if someone thinks their property is more valuable than another person's life they are an asshole
i don't care if the thief is in your house
he's stealing stuff
you're stealing life
no contest
and for the record my house has been robbed multiple times, including at gun point
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something to think about:
if trayvon were an adult, and legally had a gun, and this exact incident played out exactly the same - how much sympathy would he be receiving now? how many people would believe he was an innocent victim?
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something else to think about:
what if a rapist witnessed it???
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what if zimmerman is the product of a single mother?
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let this one simmer:
what if the whole incident went down on AN ANCIENT INDIAN BURIAL GROUND??
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Indian burial grounds in Florida? Not likely!
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In defense of Zimmerman, Skittles are a deadly weapon.
A facebook friend said he was hoping this was all some totally fucked up viral marketing plan by skittles and not actually real so he could stop being so sad about it.
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lol @ boris
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Reminds me of this incident in Mpls
While the victim/robber was armed in this case, the shooter knowingly drove up to an armed man and it was deemed self-defense. The shooter wasn't near the scene of the robbery, but decides to confront the robber. I can't see that as self-defense either.
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neight.
Relax. Srsly.
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At the risk of stirring the turd, the premise that any human life is universally of greater value than any amount of worldly possessions is kind of indefensible.
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what? how? i'd love to see you defend that. go ahead.
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yeah, do that.
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"if it pleases the court, i'd like to act as my own counsel for this trial. the facts are clear: yes, i did stab a man 37 times in the face. but in my defense, i have some REALLY NICE STUFF he was trying to take. REALLY nice. i'm talkin' some pants from Banana Republic and shit. Time will vindicate me."
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what kind of human life are we talking here? who do you have in mind? yourself? what 'worldly possession' would the taking of your life be 'worth'?
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fat sack of chrondo, brauh
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Maybe I'm extrapolating too far, and obviously there are issues of agency and of commission vs. omission, but I'm just saying that there are hundreds of perfectly socially acceptable ways in which material goods are accrued and protected at the cost of human lives.
The far end of that spectrum is Louis C.K.'s bit about how many people in Africa he kills by not selling his car and buying one that's less nice, and donating the difference to charity.
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yeah, so not satisfying. but thanks for playing.
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none of this has anything at all to do with what happened in Florida to Trayvon.
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NEWSFLASH GUYS!
There is no Florida
None of this is real.
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can i get a spoiler alert? sheesh!
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the dog dies when it hits its head on the wall
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"I'm pretty sad that some racist deviant killed a unarmed youth, and some racist cops didn't follow procedure so he wouldn't be charged with a crime. Excuse me whilst I climb this pulpit to tell you all that is wrong in America, in the name of Trayvon."
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Oooh a louis ck stand up bit, tell me more
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Hahahahahah, magmer <3's Louis CK
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newsflash: danjohnson posts dumb shit on local message board
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newsflash: Donnyyy posts a bitchy internet response to something he doesn't know jack shit about.
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i'm just going to let your posts above imply your level of knowledge of politics and the law, and just leave it at that
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oh but I love it so much when you talk down to all of us dullards and cretins with yer big words and such.
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oh just fucking shut up. i've worked hard on campaigns and cases for people who face circumstances you can't even imagine. yeah, i've learned a thing or two through getting a phd but i've also put in my time working for social justice on the ground. if you have a problem with that, then that's your problem.
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Sweet Jesus, you all sound like total dicks right now
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Sorry, board.
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donnyyy, dishin' and not takin' since the days of dial-up. haha.
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lol
bitch i'd read your ass to next tuesday
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and seriously. i take it more than ever will. trust me
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team donny
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oh dip. I guess I can't argue that...
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cool diss bro!
seriously, just quit
your fucking ass got read up and down
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the library is closed.
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easy pal that wasn't a dis that was an olive branch, no hard feelings, etc.
I still think you're a smarmy little prick, but that doesn't mean I don't like you.
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haha smarmy is straight, please i prefer pervy or skanky
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haha ok pervy then.
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ah yeah!
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I spit on your spit. I piss on your spit. I shit on your piss. I fart on your shit. I laugh at your fart. We are friends again! Hey!
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that's a pretty good synopsis. more sharting needed tho
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I kill you! I kill you my friend!
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oh god, i dont think i can handle the pit of sadness that is his parents' comments. uber-:(
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Million Hoodies? Was a hoodie one of the reason that the block captain identified the kid as suspicious?
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I think it's prob a statement that addresses the typical 'young urban male' style, which is often associated with racial/age discrimination, etc.
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Oh sure, but I was wondering if it had a more direct link from the 911 tapes.
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not sure
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Zimmerman's account
With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times, leaving him bloody and battered, authorities have revealed to the Orlando Sentinel.
That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say.
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So the cops didn't even call an ambulance for a guy who had the shit beat out of him and his head slammed into the sidewalk? Interesting.
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Is there much of an account on when Zimmerman pulled the gun out? Is it known if he approached Martin with the gun drawn?
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for some reason I though he was shot when they got back up...
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not to get super armchair-prosecutor, but - assuming dude DID sustain some injuries to his head/face area during a scuffle - wouldn't his grill look all effed up in his mugshot?
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that mugshot is from '05
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That's what I was wondering too, pitpat. I have only seen images of his face in his mugshot (no upper body, arms etc in pictures) but he looks totally unharmed.
This is so fucking sad. All of it breaks my heart.
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Yeah, there is no mugshot from the Martn incident. That's the issue, Zimmerman wasn't taken into custody.
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ahhh, ok. i gotcha.
duh.
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Soapy Kittens
3/26/12 2:44 PM
Let's remember Zimmerman is not law enforcement. What we have here is someone with a gun following an unarmed person and acting in a threatening manner. The person with the gun ends up killing the unarmed person. Everything follows from that set of [alleged] facts. No subsequent scenario mitigates those facts.
There are two options here:
1. The authorities are not applying the law appropriately.
2. The law doesn't view the armed person's actions as criminal
Either way is an abhorrent problem.
Does it make a difference, legally or ethically, if Martin did not know that Zimmerman was armed? If he didn't know that Zimmerman was armed and ZImmerman was retreating, is Martin still standing his ground?
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I don't think any of these self-defense laws apply when you are unarmed and just using your fists. I don't think that's considered deadly force in the eyes of these laws, unless you're a martial arts expert trained to kill with your bare hands.
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More than anything this case, even in scenario that Zimmerman describes, show me why guns in society are such a dangerous thing. Would Zimmerman have even placed himself in this situation if he wasn't armed already? I sincerely doubt it.
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1. As I understand it, the hoodie thing is from a jerk comment Geraldo made suggesting that wearing a hoodie is asking for it.
2. Had a heartbreaking conversation with a coworker yesterday, who has 2 African American children, about what clothes they can wear in light of this awful situation.
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emily
3/26/12 2:59 PM
I don't think any of these self-defense laws apply when you are unarmed and just using your fists. I don't think that's considered deadly force in the eyes of these laws, unless you're a martial arts expert trained to kill with your bare hands.
I'm confused about what you are saying/addressing.
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not sure, but i THINK she's saying she's gonna punch you in the mouf w. her bare hands?
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Swagatha Christie
3/26/12 3:02 PM
1. As I understand it, the hoodie thing is from a jerk comment Geraldo made suggesting that wearing a hoodie is asking for it.
I thought the Geraldo comments came after the "million hoodie march." Maybe not.
How closely linked are comments like Geraldo's and Zimmerman's possible suspicion of Martin based on his clothing related to my continued distatst for the term "hoodie"? In my youth, we called them hooded sweatshirts!
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No. This guy was actively seeking out a scenario where he could use his sidearm.
When you talk to "gun people," there is a pretty large population of them who operate under the delusion that they really will someday be in a situation where they will have the opportunity to save lives by taking down a threat.
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emily could probably drop me in one punch. She would have nothing to fear from my tiny fist powered by the thrust of my garden hose arm.
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Sorry, that was for stu saying Zimmerman wouldn't have put himself in that situation had he not been armed.
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emily
3/26/12 3:05 PM
No. This guy was actively seeking out a scenario where he could use his sidearm.
When you talk to "gun people," there is a pretty large population of them who operate under the delusion that they really will someday be in a situation where they will have the opportunity to save lives by taking down a threat.
I mostly agree with your first paragraph and completely agree with your second paragraph. There are people that I know that I am fairly certain sit in their homes at night with a loaded gun in their hands, hoping for a break in that they have no reason to think will happen.
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emily
3/26/12 3:05 PM
No. This guy was actively seeking out a scenario where he could use his sidearm.
When you talk to "gun people," there is a pretty large population of them who operate under the delusion that they really will someday be in a situation where they will have the opportunity to save lives by taking down a threat.
Didn't they pass that law in FL about how you can shoot someone who is in the act of committing a crime? I think it was called "The shoot first, ask questions later Law."
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Oh, never mind, I see where that was already discussed.
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stu
3/26/12 2:53 PM
Does it make a difference, legally or ethically, if Martin did not know that Zimmerman was armed? If he didn't know that Zimmerman was armed and ZImmerman was retreating, is Martin still standing his ground?
OK I guess maybe I dont' understand what you're saying here. I was trying to say that Martin jumping on Zimmerman isn't "standing his ground" under the Florida law, because that law applies to deadly force, particularly guns, not fists. He would be guilty of assault, whether Zimmerman was armed or not.
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Perhaps I was being too liberal with the term "standing your ground" given that it seems to have a specific meaning to the Florida law in question. But you seem to have gotten to the heart of my question which is if Martin would have been committing an assault in the situation that Zimmerman describes.
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Yes, in fact in several cases the person who used more significant force, even if they weren't the ones who started it, will be the ones who get prosecuted-- ie, guy A verbally taunts and shoves guy B, guy B jumps on A and pummels him bloody-- guy B is guilty of assault even though they both participated.
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Okay, so what if guy A makes it known that he has a firearm and maybe even draws it?
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And then what, Guy B still attacks him?
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what if one of them is a robot and the other one is a pizza?
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Yes, and then Guy B attacks and bloodies him.
If Guy A just shows the gun, perhaps in a waist band or holster, does that make a difference from drawing or pointing it? (all hypotheticals, of course. I don't expect you to necessarily know the answer.)
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ha ha to pitpat. But I am curious about his scenario too.
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this is why i'd be a terrible jury member.
all holding up the verdict, other jurors all itchin' to go home 12 Angry Men style.
me all musing to myself, "but bros, what if that car was actually a giant Thermos??? Huh? Uh...not guilty."
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I'm not sure, stu. I think laws of self defense do apply if a gun is pointed at you and you go on the offensive and kill the person. I think you would be put through the system and found to be justified. If two guys wrestle over a gun they would probably both be charged, depending on the circumstances.
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As someone who sits in their house with a loaded gun waiting for a break in I have no reason to believe will occur I just wanna say to the other psychos out there, maybe practice your aim. Ya know, non-lethal shot. I actually never heard anything about the nature of the gunshot wound. Like did he just fire one round? Out of a 9mm? Hmm. Either I obviously don't have much to contribute here.
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So, wait.
It's been established that Zimmerman was following Martin, and according to the cell phone call Martin felt threatened by this. Would Martin not be acting in self defense? I mean, it's not like Zimmerman in this situation would have been anything other than a guy with a gun following an unarmed person. Martin would have had no reason to believe that Zimmerman's intentions were anything other than malicious.
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pretty much, frumy.
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As I read the latest account in the Orlando Sentinel, I don't think Zimmerman pulled the gun out until he Martin was on top of him. If that is the case, at that point Zimmerman is just an asshole, not an asshole with a gun.
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This thread...man.
If I ever have children, I am going to tell them repeatedly to treat every human with a gun like they are a crazed lunatic who could snap and shoot at any given second. Be slow-moving, overly-cautious, and explain your every move in a soothing voice. And don't ever wear a hoodie in Florida.
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I see what you guys are saying about the self-defense here. I'm not sure you can beat up and injure someone who is following you, but I think you can fight your way out of a gunfight or try to wrestle someone who waves a gun at you. Whatever the intent of the "shoot first" law in Fla is, I don't think it includes antagonizing someone into assaulting you so you can use your weapon. Zimmerman is pretty clearly the aggressor here, and each person involved escalated the force being used.
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Too hot to wear hoodies down here anyways.
Either way, Zimmerman should have been taken into custody. If he was innocent under a bizarre law the legislature passed, that's what trials are for. Orlando Sentinel did a story recently saying most of those who used defense laws were still taken into custody. The cops sympathized with Zimmerman and people are rightly pissed off about that.
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Yeah, again, Zimmerman likely put himself in this situation BECAUSE he was armed. The result was that he shot and killed a kid that he confronted.
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The other established fact that we have that hasn't been in today's discussion is that Zimmerman ignored the 911 operator's directions to stay away and that police were coming to investigate the suspicious person.
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Yeah, in fact, when Zimmerman TOLD the 911 operator that he was pursuing Martin, the operated said, "Sir, we don't need you to do that."
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TVAsEyes nailed it. The cops here should have arrested, cuffed and booked the shooter and a full investigation should have been done, grand jury and everything. You can't sort something like this out in a few minutes and let the guy walk. I have seen cases where there was no intent whatsoever to kill (i.e. holding someone down who was crazy on drugs and they died while being restrained) and they still put everyone involved through the system. When cops shoot people they almost always go to grand jury.
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I don't think anyone is debating guns in this thread. Take it to the gun debate thread.
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guns don't kill people, gun laws kill people
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I'm with princelumber that bringing gun ownership into this just befogs the offense: one guy murdered another guy and justice is being delayed/averted. Even the biggest supporter of guns should be outraged.
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the way all these conservative blogs and news outlets are trying to smear this dead teen is just so sad. it doesn't matter if he was a scumbag or not, he was a fucking teenager, let the kid rest in peace.
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I already said this in this thread, but putting your opinions on guns in this thread is what I call "grandstanding". Have some fucking respect.
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Guns have feelings, too.
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honkin_on_bobo
3/27/12 10:47 AM
I'm with princelumber that bringing gun ownership into this just befogs the offense: one guy murdered another guy and justice is being delayed/averted. Even the biggest supporter of guns should be outraged.
trayvon martin's murder is not an isolated incident - it is directly tied to guns and gun laws
since florida adopted Stand Your Ground they've gone from an average of 13 "justified" killings a year to 36
this is just one example of fucked up gun laws leading to more death
it is without a doubt as much about the law and guns as it is trayvon and george
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i think being perplexed over our nation's gun laws and gun fanatacism (not the actual guns themselves) - and debating the merits of said laws/fanatacism - is a more than reasonable response to this tragedy.
i really don't see how it sullies the memory of the victim.
guns aren't inherantly bad, nor are gun owners.
but gun fanatacism, and this weird fear/paranoid that it engenders, is most certainly part of this problem
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you guys, Trayvon Martin definitely wouldn't want us talking about gun laws right now. show some respect.
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I guess I thought this incident was way more about race, racial hatred, profiling and fear. I mean christ, "these guys always get away".
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Soapy Kittens
3/27/12 11:53 AM
Usually when someone profiles and kills someone else they're in jail.
Or some sort of army.
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troo
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Or black.
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SK, you're wrong. And kind of a dick.
It's about shitty, most likely racist, cops. Plenty of other people have been arrested, tried, and exonerated.
so nice that you guys pay so much attention to me. I feel loved.
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Between changing the beliefs (I. E. racism) that caused this vs changing the laws that allowed it.
Which is the more productive conversation to have here?
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The Led Zep vs. Black Sabbath one.
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coke vs pepsi
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I'm with princelumber that bringing gun ownership into this just befogs the offense: one guy murdered another guy and justice is being delayed/averted. Even the biggest supporter of guns should be outraged.
---they should be the MOST outraged, imo, if they're concerned at ALL about their standes having a perceived modicum of integrity from here on out.
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To play devil's advocate: If Zimmerman's account is true, how does that change things?
My point is that while race and guns and gun rights and self-defense laws are all issues in this, the single biggest problem here by far (well, besides the "No shit, Sherlock" problem of an unarmed person being dead) was the police misconduct.
We certainly don't know the whole story of how this went down, but Zimmerman, even if he is telling the truth and may have a legitimate self-defense claim, should have been detained for a period of time and probably brought before a grand jury. This is insane!
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Zimmerman's account being true doesn't change anything.
If Trayvon had a gun and a permit he could have shot and killed George Zimmerman instead of punching him, and while he probably would have had a harder time convincing a Florida jury that he was innocent, he could have easily claimed the stand your ground law.
And that's why Zimmerman's claim of self defense holds no water. There is proof of Zimmerman following Martin and confronting him aggressively (between Martin's call with police and transcript of call between Martin and his friend before the fight), and proof of Martin trying to flee (from the friend phone call).
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Is that for real? if so major WIN. Fuckin props, dudes.
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Hoodlums.
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But Uncle Jam, that's NOT Zimmerman's account. At least not according to the Orlando Sentinel article. According to that source, Zimmerman told police that he did confront Williams (not showing a gun), and walked away. When Zimmerman walked away, Martin followed him and punched him, jumped on top of him, and slammed his head into the concrete. At this point Zimmerman called for help, pulled out his gun, and shut Williams. The Sentinel says that an eye witness corroborated the account.
One witness, who has since talked to local television news reporters, told police he saw Zimmerman on the ground with Trayvon on top, pounding him — and was unequivocal that it was Zimmerman who was crying for help.
However, I still don't see how Zimmerman isn't taken into custody and questioned more thoroughly.
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why the fuck do they keep referring to Zimmerman as a "civilian patrolman"?!?!?! One articel even alluded to him as a "cop".
"Hey guys, I bought a gun, I'M A COP WOO HOO!"
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Huh, I haven't read that title for him anywhere. I referred to him as a block captain way up thread, but that was kind of tongue in cheek. But yeah, most stories I read, at least early on, were about him as a self-appointed neighborhood watch guy, almost in a mocking tone.
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self-appointed is always used in a mocking tone :)
anyways, if I was on this jury, I would have such a hard time believing dude got his ass kicked by someone 70lbs lighter than him.
He HAD to have been drunk.
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So says the self-appointed gun rights advocate of the MRMB.
;)
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haha I'll gladly hand off the torch to anyone....Dannypaws?
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Haha I'm game. Ya know what they also sell at gun shops? Bulletproof vests and body armor. Maybe if Obama wouldnt have taken all our gun freedoms away this young man could have protected himself.
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HA. HA. Ha.
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ha. :(.
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whoa nice link neight. This gets more and more interesting every day...
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ooooofda
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I for one am relieved to have my trust in the police restored
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holy crap. shit gettin nasty.
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Do The Wrong Thing
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Maybe I'm missing it, but Spike didn't even apologize for that. At least not on twitter. He was kind enough to delete the retweet.
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Spike is, and always has been, kinda badass. I just watched his under-rated VIDEO flick "Bamboozled" recently, and I came to re-admire him, especially listening to the commentary.
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holy crap. shit gettin nasty righteous.
fyp
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Righteous how, pee? Making a bad situation worse?
And then, to top it off. . .
(William)Zimmerman traced the tweets — which he said have been retweeted by actor-director Spike Lee — to a man in California. Zimmerman has implored the man to stop and said he received this response, "Black power all day. No justice, no peace" and an obscenity.
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MARCUS D. HIGGINS
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MARCUS D.HIGGINS ‏ @MACCAPONE
love all people period. martin family will be home cry while we go to sleep.god bless love all the people. hate me or love me.
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perplexed: i thought he wasn't even taken in to custody?!?!?!
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Yeah I wondered that too.
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IMAGE REMOVED - CLICK TO VIEW
"Fox News commentator Tucker Carlson's The Daily Caller has published an obviously FAKE photograph of Trayvon Martin with a hand flipping the bird photoshopped in. They claim that it is a "successive photo" of the one published by the Orlando Sentinel. However, it is obviously the same photograph. There is no way to take two photos with the exact same PIXELS twice. I've opened them in Photoshop and the pixels are exactly the same down to the smallest detail."
- taken from a social networking website
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Oh no...Not the MIDDLE FINGER!!!
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I heard there is also a picture of him with a gold grill wtf?
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oh man it's like he's flipping ME off! FUCK YOU DUDE! TEAM ZIMMERMAN
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guys, everyday is a sad day.
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Greg took a picture of me flipping the bird once. If I get shot, pleeeease don't release it to the media! Everyone will know I'm a career criminal!
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This whole thing is such a shame. It boggles my mind that people can actually defend Zimmerman and douchebags like that fucking asshat Tucker Carlson cannot see that just because he was a young black man doesn't mean he was armed or dangerous or even threatening to anybody beyond this racist vigillante with too many weapons too much bloodlust and too much time on his hands.
I have no sympathy for Zimmerman- if he's upset about people threatening him he should not have shot and killed an innocent boy.
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Seriously, who does something like that? "I'm going to photoshop a middle finger into that dead kid's photo and distribute it on the internet. That's how I'm spending my afternoon"
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That hand looks rather white to me.
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Tucker and the right wing are attacking him because the movement for his justice is attacking two of their sacred cows: police and gun laws
its not about Trayvon anymore, its about shutting down a popular movement demanding accountability of the power structure
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a-fucking-men.
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Not to mention, good dog whistle material given the President's comments. "He says his son would look like Trayvon Martin? This is Obama's son. Look how scary he is!"
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it's too bad that the cases aren't really the same.
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Sounds like that case would have been considered self defense in Minnesota too.
It's sad and the dead person is a young black man, but other than that there are no similarities between the Martin shooting and the Morrison shooting.
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These two executions of black minors due to a white person's feelings could not be more different.
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fucking christ slinger.
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i cant wait to purchase a home so that i can start killing people that i kind of dont like.
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I have decided that what bleeds from your liberal bleeding hearts is irony.
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Other than the perceived imminent danger was solely based on race?
Fair enough.
I am anti-gun and it's very sickening that the guy in Wisconsin had such an itchy trigger finger, but the circumstances of the cases are substantially different. In one case a young black man was followed down the street by someone who had been advised by the police to not follow him, and in the other a young black man was inside an enclosed porch in the shooter's house.
It would be nice if we could legislate away racism, but I don't think that's possible.
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princelumber has irony-poor blood?
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several reports say that the police were only a couple hundred feet away the whole time.
http://www.politiscoop.com/us-politics/wisconsin-politics/839-police-redact-911-call-castle-doctrine-answers.html
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Sickening.
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All anybody really knows for sure is that, very tragically and unfortunately, a young man died. As to how that happened, the information just isn't out there for anyone to really know. Why can't people just leave it at that is beyond me.
The constant gossipy "news" coverage, especially by CNN, has been despicable. 90% of the "news coverage" comes in the form of biased commentators, like Piers Morgan or Anderson Cooper, asking loaded questions, making conjecture and appealing to emotion.
Last night Zimmerman's older brother was on Piers Morgan's show and Piers had the gall to ask him: because so many people wanted his brother arrested for shooting Trayvon, why shouldn't be be arrested? Then he questions his motives for being there, wasn't he just there to defend his brother? Christ.
This entirely tragic incident is yet another a great example of how a whole lot of people can come to conclusions about things they really know very little, if not nothing, about.
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FIRST!
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Poor poor zimmerman's older brother. Pity.
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jaw, i feel you, but I think there's an overwhelming set of evidence and background seeming to weigh very heavily in one direction. I, for once, feel actually pretty certain, however, that the court decisions are going to Do the Right Thing and figure it out on this one.
Sadly, I feel that conclusion is in part because TM was a 17 year old, with no record, no weapon, etc. If this was a 40 YO black man in other circumstances, my faith-in-the-justice-system-o-meter would be idling right around it's usual red.
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princelumber
3/30/12 9:45 AM
I have decided that what bleeds from your liberal bleeding hearts is irony.
? so like are you rooting for zimmerman as part of the gun rights cause or whatever? or you just cool with how this thing went down? or just yr usual ron paul concern trolling?
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I stand with all the murderers.
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as was pointed out above, guns rights advocates should be the most concerned about this, as it colors the legitimacy of their stance.
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manny gettin' all Debbs-y on us.
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In the police station surveilance video I'm impressed with the fitness level of the killer. The image I posted up thread shows a pudgy and sensitive face, a stark contrast to the lean, muscular build and remorseless demeanor of the man brought in to police HQ.
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....all beaten up, broken-nosed, and inches-from -death rattled by a menacing black thug.
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magma90210
3/30/12 12:27 PM
princelumber
3/30/12 9:45 AM
I have decided that what bleeds from your liberal bleeding hearts is irony.
? so like are you rooting for zimmerman as part of the gun rights cause or whatever? or you just cool with how this thing went down? or just yr usual ron paul concern trolling?
If you read my posts in this thread, you will see that the first two of your guesses are way off the mark. The third is close, but I'm not trolling. I don't think every time two people of different color are involved in some kind of altercation that it's automatically race base.
And like Uncle Jam said, you can't legislate against racism/nut jobs/fanatics/eccentrics/catastrophes. Someone is going to fuck up any law you put out there. And seriously, you guys are a bunch of pantywaisted indie rockers.
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oops "based"
;)
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So the slur in the police call didn't persuade you?
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indie rock is as repugnant as our country's gun laws.
BOOM.
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NRA > Decembrists
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All your race base are belong to us
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I can shoot someone for playing twee music near me?
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One day, Finn. One day.
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Support HR8391 aka The Beat Happening Amendment.
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Keep your Down By Law off my body.
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groovylucifer
3/30/12 12:54 PM
So the slur in the police call didn't persuade you?
Please see my above posts. The Trayvon killing was most likely race based.
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Ah, I stand corrected. I usually try to ignore you when you're trolling.
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haha that's ok. I've come to expect things like that.
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Sorry, empty. I'm not going to read this thread because it angers and saddens me more than anything I've seen in quite a while.
But thank you for starting the discussion on here. This story started out bad and it just keeps taking on new levels of awful.
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I was going to make some perverse post about showing Zimmerman something behind the barn and or out in the glades but then I restrained myself. Maybe I should remove my "blog" from my "profile" in case his family googles.
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I'd be afraid to be a mailman in Florida.
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I'd be afraid to be IN Florida.
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I'll be there next week; kind of interested to see the local view of all this.
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Please be careful down there Orbit.
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Yah no hoodies.
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Orbit all drunk in a redneck bar.."SO, what do you fucking hillbillies think about that trayvon kid?"
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hahahahaha trying to picture Orbit being that antagonistic is amazing.
"why don't you hillpeople stop eating peaches off the floor long enough to answer me some questions"
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No way, I'm gonna be staying near the Daytona Beach area - a bar is the last place I want to be.
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(unfortunate timing, that)
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Where is the part where he describes what the title alleges?
Awesome article, btw, tho. Ali is a cool brother.
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3rd page
I get so much push back from my fans, and this is hip-hop music. I'm a socially conscious artist who talks about these issues a lot. My fans who follow me on Facebook and Twitter are kicking the shit out of me for speaking about this. They say that I'm race-baiting. They say that this is reverse racism. Those are just two code words for "I don't like talking about racism and it doesn't affect my life until you start talking about it." I'm getting a push back that's saying, "How dare you."
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Cool, thanks.
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duh teddy.
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shut up
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i will not.
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someone's gonna get shot
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It was interesting that I saw the incarceration rate for all the countries in the world, and the US has the highest. However, the incarceration rate in Minnesota is the second lowest of any state, only Maine is ahead of us. Since the only thing Minnesota has in common with Maine is hockey, my assumption is that hockey players are crime fighters by night.
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Way to take a shit where you eat.
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Can't you just feel good about Mustachio's observation?
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boris parsley
3/30/12 9:30 AM
These two executions of black minors due to a white person's feelings could not be more different.
thx boris!
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Anybody still keeping an open mind about this?
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HA, right.
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we need to waterboard Zimmerman until we learn the truth.
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Daily strip searches for Zimmerman.
What were we talking about again?
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Brown guns
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Down here they're blaming the New Black Panthers. Is that even a thing, outside the fevered imaginations of Fox News devotees?
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i think they mean the Brand New Heavies
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Rotten motherfuckers for sure.
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jawknee
4/04/12 12:56 PM
Anybody still keeping an open mind about this?
an open mind about what?
whether it was right to shoot an unarmed kid?
even if trayvon did slam zimmerman's head into the ground he brought it on himself
and if he wanted to be big bad neighborhood watch man he shoulda learned how to fight and not how to pull a gun like a fucking punk
guns are for loser wimps
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I've never seen anyone with such a divine hatred for guns in my life. I thought you liked Hezbollah and shit?
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like that dude in WI "OMG there's a black kid near my precious wife and daughters, i am so afraid i must shoot him immediately"
wah wah wah what a bunch of scaredy-cat cry-babies
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yeah hezbollah - i didn't know the white folks in florida were being slaughtered in concentration camps by an invading army
and you try to call my comparison ridiculous, fuck off you ignorant redneck
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hahaha rocket launchers are cool but guns are for pussies, fuck off you hypocrite pansy.
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god you are fucking stupid
keep talking
i want to say how much idiot shit can come out of your fingers in one place
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i think yr funny, I'm just havin' fun with some internet spazz. Don't you have some cause to go fight for or are you one of those super righteous dudes that just bitches a lot and doesn't do shit? That's my guess.
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is does not surprise me that you think trolling the internet is fun, you are a fucking ignorant redneck prick
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I like both u guys.
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Not as much when you're together though.
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haha wow.
ok, let's see. if we're exchanging nastys, I will call you a bleeding heart utopian communist.
Well, sorry. That's not very nasty.
Also, I don't consider myself a "troll" per se, more of a "balance". You say something super leftist , I counter with something right wing. It's the way nature intended.
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hahaha where did the nuking Jewsih llama come from?
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I thought the kid on the guys porch was kinda fucked up, but I dunno. The kid was drunk and on his property coming towards him, not running away from him like the other kid. How about the black off duty cop shot 28 times by 4 white police officers after being pulled over driving as a security guard for bnsf railroad. Oh ya and he lived and was aquitted of two crimes one of which was firing a weapon but is now being chargedwith attempted murder...... and could be sentenced to 80 years in prison.... for being shot 28 times. Wtf.
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where did the nuking Jewish llama come from?
The CIA.
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princelumber
4/04/12 4:02 PM
Also, I don't consider myself a "troll" per se, more of a "balance". You say something super leftist , I counter with something right wing. It's the way nature intended.
fox news would be so proud!
such a great community service - making sure we are all well aware of the most dipshit opinions available
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Quick refresher: It is never okay to shoot an unarmed person.
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Oh yeah, but it's TOTALLY OKAY to shoot an unarmed goose
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shane is exposing the hypocricies of modern american life.
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AAAAAAAA YOU ARE ALL IDIOTS!!! MY FAKE JEWISH OPINIONS SLAUGHTER INNOCENT GUNOWNERS!! LITTLE MERMAID!!! AAAAAAAA!!
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thank you boris.
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AAAAAAAA YOU ARE ALL IDIOTS!!!
This thread is making me want to kill people indiscriminantely.
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i could go for some skittles, STAT
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WE SHOULD KILL ALL THE PEOPLE WITH GUNS WITH THEIR GUNS
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AND THEN MELT THEM DOWN AND MAKE HELLA FIXIIIIEESS
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The best part about killing people indiscriminately? Not racist.
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AND THEN MELT THEM DOWN AND MAKE HELLA FIXIIIIEESS A SUPER GUN
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TDTT
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thank you The Drama Llama.
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TOM DID THE TRAYVON
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llama for prez
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I didn't read this whole thread but I was wondering if this has been discussed: if you were walking home and a guy was following you, couldn't you beat the crap out of that person and claim self defense? Because it's starting to sound more and more like Martin thought some crazy asshole was following him and confronted him, and unfortunately it was a crazy asshole and the crazy asshole had a gun.
To me, it sounds like (according to the law in Florida) you are allowed to kill anybody as long as you think you are in danger. So if you really hated a person, you could just follow them home every night, and when they confront you or turn around and yell something at you, you can shoot them because you felt threatened. Very solid law.
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Drama Llama all sittin' on a skittle pic just waiting, knowing and waiting....
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I could be prez. Concentration camps for redneck Hamas jocks to print bumperstickers for the poor, whatever. Free night school for handicapped cops.
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I'm with Mustachio. Based on the facts they have released, it sounds like if Trayvon had a gun and a license he could have shot and killed Zimmerman and claimed self defense. Whether he would have been able to convince a Florida jury of that is a different can of worms.
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Where can I donate to your superpac?
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He would just have to call up his uncle, the King of Florida
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AND THEN MELT THEM DOWN AND MAKE HELLA FIXIIIIEESS A SUPER GUN A FUNCTIONING MORAL COMPASS
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(to 9/11)
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Orbit wants to donate to 9/11.
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9/11 was directly funded by Orbit?
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You know you're losing your mojo when the opinions you express have already been more succinctly vocalized by editorial cartoons
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boris parsley
4/04/12 4:18 PM
Quick refresher: It is never okay to shoot an unarmed person.
"A person who speaks in absolutes is either a fool or a scoundrel."
Define "armed."
If the size difference is large enough, fists, hands and feet are weapons. A penis is a weapon if used improperly. If I were the type to pack heat, I would shoot a rapist and be able to live with myself.
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Free Acid For Fishermen is the PAC, and it's basically a cult, and you can semd us money. If you're an outdoorsman who likes drugs and fiery rhetoric that gets screamed, join up.
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ted nugent will be calling you soon
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Free beepers if you were in the Klan! Keep abortion doctor hands off my condiments! Exhume Timothy Leary's body and take it to a day game at Wrigley Field! Ludacris will be there!
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You are giving the I Like Doing Bumps Off Titties Party a run for their money.
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neight
4/04/12 4:17 PM
fox news would be so proud!
such a great community service - making sure we are all well aware of the most dipshit opinions available
opinions, bro. You have them, I have them, yours aren't any smarter than mine. That's what's called "The Internet".
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Oh!
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no
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Wonder what a book would say.
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words and shit probably
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books are so one sided.
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"Let it be known that he did insist we try the food ("there's no other way to describe it except that it rocks")"
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hahahahaha
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magma90210
4/04/12 5:44 PM
been going pretty well! i've been good about practicing, probably at least 20 minutes a day....
learning some more advanced excercises in the book, definitely hard still but i'm getting a lot better
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What book is that from?
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Print is dead.
Most likely from a gunshot.
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RandyQuaidofthemind
4/04/12 5:57 PM
otomox just replied in the Trayvon Martin thread
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hahaha but yeah i'm getting pretty good at shooting unarmed children, not braggin' just sayin'
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melt all the guns down into a molten ooze that we throw the cops in, like the end of T2
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OMFG
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I had a pretty similar experience WITH TORII HUNTER! I was working at Byerly's, a bunch of Twins and some Royals (who were in town) came in to buy a bunch of meat for a BBQ. Some of them got some things, paid, and then walked around the store with their bags with their teammates/friends. I called my manager because I needed change at my register, and she said sorry can't help you now, following some suspicious people around the store. I knew exactly who she was talking about. When they all went up and the last of them paid, the manager had found out who they were and ASKED FOR THEIR AUTOGRAPHS. Moral of the story: that manager later got fired because a customer left her purse at her register and she rifled through it and took the customer's credit cards and used them at the store we worked at, amongst other places.
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So dish: does Torii Hunter have at his BBQ?
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cool question bro
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That manager later got fired because a customer left her purse at her register and she rifled through it and took the customer's credit cards and used them at the store we worked at, amongst other places.
Swag.
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I was indirectly involved with that purse thing too. I worked at the register she had worked at (which was way off on it's own by the Leann chin/deli) after her, and the customer who lost her purse and the manager come over asking if I had seen a purse and said the customer looked online and had seen some charges at the store and nearby stores. I was all wtf? I got no purse? Then we dug around and she had shoved it way back in one of the shelf things behind some bags.
Fuck that lady.
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911 Tape Editing
this by no way makes Zimmerman innocent, but I wish everyone would stick with clean facts to sort through this tragedy
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Huh. Probably better than going with the Twinkie Defense I guess. Though the Twinkie Defense worked for the guy who killed Harvey Milk. Not sure why you'd use the term "shaken baby syndrome" when all you're saying is that he was getting his head pounded into the ground. Why not just say "he was getting his head pounded into the ground"? Weird.
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because getting your head pounded into the ground doesn't normally turn people into murderers?
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I still don't believe a kid was able to pound a grown man's head into the ground...he just made that story up.
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he was so hideously repulsed by skittles he fell on his ass, hit his head, and murdered trayvon to hide his shame
plausible
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If that video that came out last week was actually from the night of the killing, he certainly didn't pound Zimmerman's head into the ground very hard.
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This marks the first time a defense attorney has acknowledged that shaken baby syndrome is real.
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Ha ha. Zing!
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because getting your head pounded into the ground doesn't normally turn people into murderers?
Probably has more than Shaken Baby Syndrome has. Or is Shaken Baby linked to wackiness later in life?
And yeah, "Shaken Baby" is the cool way to say it.
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I should remember that if I stay out of these threads for a couple weeks, the visceral indignation will have worn off, and most of the posts will be glib devil's advocacy and gallows humor so my posts won't stand out so much.
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Try a couple more weeks
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ULTIMATE DISS
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You can't make this shit up.
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Oh. So he's crazy, then. This whole thing just started to make a lot more sense. At some point it will come out that he's bipolar. This is some major, major grandiosity.
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cowardly hearts or straight up shook babies
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Sounds like the prosecutor has some kind of new evidence and is going to make a statement within 72 hours...
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dexter found him i just know it
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zsa zsa you just made me snort laugh my beer into my nose
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hawt.
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Those Zimmerman lawyers suck. They were on Piers Morgan's show a few weeks ago and came off as old angry men. Now they're holding press conferences and talking about their "client" in a pretty unflattering light.
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Second degree murder
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Let the circus begin.
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^ first
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get it?
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I think I ruined your joke. Sorry.
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Naw bro.
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my coworker and I were talking today how it's pretty much gonna be a circus from here on out. You can just hope they don't fuck it up too bad.
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seriously, can you imagine how much more sketchy shit may have gone down in the weeks between the shooting and today?
wtf, florida.
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I can't wait for presumptive Candidate Romney to weigh in.
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Orbit, good observation. He can't win.
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It's been pretty quiet lately..
Given that bail hearing, it looks like the prosecution doesn't have much. The police chief resigned, but the city counsel DENIED it (wtf? can that happen?). Zimmerman is out and back in hiding.
Then there is THIS:
IMAGE REMOVED - CLICK TO VIEW
.. pretty strong evidence helping his self-defense defense.
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I would be completely happy if this case is used to repeal stand your ground laws or amend them. I've also noticed that he posted bail and seems to have money to travel and I'm wondering if that's from his web site which asks for donations. I think there should be some kind of law to prohibit somebody from capitalizing on something like this. The barefoot bandit isn't allowed to get money for the movie rights to his story, why can somebody get rich from killing an unarmed teenager? That's pretty messed up.
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He hasn't been convicted of a crime yet.
There is a law, but it only applies to people who have been found guilty.
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well in the case of the barefoot bandit, i believe that was part of the plea bargain.
it would be ultra sweet if zimmerman makes a plea bargain: his freedom in exchange for him not accepting any donations and for the rest of his life, he must walk around unarmed with a bag of skittles and an arizona tea and if somebody follows him or confronts them, he must try to kill them with his bare hands before he shoots them. that would be kind of a sweet movie, like judge dredd meets running man
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I don't get that bar fight analogy because as far as we know there isn't any evidence that Zimmerman started the fight. Many people seem to believe that Martin had just cause to start it, but I don't think following someone is grounds for the followed person to attack the following person (like some kind of "aggravated assault" thing).
All we know is that Zimmerman's nose is broken and the back of his head is wounded, which only supports his story that Martin attacked him. Martin's autopsy report may show Zimmerman injured Martin (besides the gunshot wound) even more severely ... or maybe didn't at all. If Martin's only wound is the bullet wound, that would pretty much substantiate all of Zimmerman's claims of self-defense.
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If Martin's only wound is the bullet wound, that would pretty much substantiate all of Zimmerman's claims of self-defense.
Well, I don't disagree with the idea that blood/injuries on Zimmerman corroborates his story and I also agree that there's very little to no evidence that he engaged Martin in a physical alternation. That said, there are strange details in the case, such as the recording of the police call that presumably reveals that Trayvon was yelling for help just before the fatal shot. I'm speaking of the audio experts who said Zimmerman was definitely not the person on the 911 call screaming "help." I honestly don't know what is a fact and what will become disregarded as fiction during the trial. But you look at the details of the case and it's fairly obvious that somebody is lying. Trayvon's girlfriend said she heard the beginning of the altercation. Plus, one of the "witnesses" (she says she saw the before and after but not the during) says that Zimmerman was on top of Martin during their altercation. So hell, I don't know. But it's important to remember that all we know about this case is that Zimmerman followed Trayvon thinking he might be a criminal for whatever reason, a fight ensued, and Zimmerman fired at Martin. Everything else will come out in trial or never be known. But either way, I hope people look at this case and recognize that no matter what side they're on or what the believed happened, we are unable to discern speculation from fact and should be very cautious in demanding justice when we don't know the whole story.
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Well said, Mustachio.
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because murdering someone after they broke your nose is totes copasetic
try again
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He's being tried in the Court Of Copasepticism
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mustachio and jawknee, you'd better knock it off, what with that rational talk and all.
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Think of the relief should this stalking execution turn out legally defensible!
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well, we all got what we wanted, and that's an arrest.. All we can do now is sit back and see what goes down.
Like I said before, just get ready for a sideshpw. This could make the OJ trial pale in comparison.
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lol "pale in comparison" is that a joke
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boris parsley
4/24/12 5:28 PM
Think of the relief should this stalking execution turn out legally defensible!
I'm sure that a lot of people think Zimmerman is some kind of heroic vigilante who stood up against the culture of black violence that's ruining America. But I think for the most part, people don't like what Zimmerman did (or they don't like him period) and they have little to no tolerance for taking the law into your own hands and following unarmed teenagers around assuming they are violent criminals who you may need to shoot. I won't be happy if Zimmerman is let off the hook. But I sure as hell don't want our judges to start basing their verdicts on what the public wants. If there's evidence, throw the bastard in jail. If it can't be proven that what he did was illegal under current law, it might suck but you kind of have to let the guy go.
Here's another addition to the OJ trial comparisons: remember when OJ was found not guilty? He still wound up paying a heavy price for what he did, because everybody knew what happened. If Zimmerman is or isn't found guilty, either way the public will know (to some extent) what happened, and his life will truly suck balls. So hooray for the internet.
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The law doesn't exist to make people happy.
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I'm pretty happy to forget about it now that he's been indicted. I feel like that's about as much good as my citizen outrage can possibly do.
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zsa zsa I'm not witty enough to make a joke like that.
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maltese
4/24/12 10:46 PM
The law doesn't exist to make people happy.
I was thinking this statement doesn't account for rich people, but by and large they're not a happy lot.
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Mustachio
4/24/12 10:43 PM
If it can't be proven that what he did was illegal under current law
if murdering an unarmed person isn't illegal then the law should just give up and die already
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there are absolutley circumstances when i'd condone killing an unarmed person. to stop a rape, for instance.
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..or to stop someone from eating your leg, or to stop someone from strangling you, or to stop someone from poking your eyes out, or to stop someone from bashing your head in.
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what soapy said.
anyshits, i'm just sayin' that there certainly ARE extenuating circumstances that would make killing an unarmed person acceptable.
the trayvon martin case is obviously NOT one of those circumstances.
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Whether or not someone is armed is pretty irrelevant IMO.
I
M
O
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I still won't go so far as to say "obviously" not one of those circumstances because the facts in this case are still not totally apparent. But I will say that it seems extremely likely that it not the case here.
I still contend that being armed emboldened Zimmerman to confront someone and put him in a situation (that he created) that ended with him shooting someone, maybe even in self defense. But he probably wouldn't have even needed to defend himself if he didn't go looking for something that wasn't there.
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INSURMOUNTABLE MILITARY ORDINANCE
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I still contend that being armed emboldened Zimmerman to confront someone and put him in a situation (that he created) that ended with him shooting someone, maybe even in self defense. But he probably wouldn't have even needed to defend himself if he didn't go looking for something that wasn't there.
---My rationale EXACTLY. This is why there shouldn't be lax-as-fuck trigger-happy gun laws.
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word, stu
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keep yer laws off of my murder finger.
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pls start a band and name it Murder Finger
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Murder Fingered
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"my lifestyle determines your deathstyle."
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Yeah, but there are plenty of neighborhood watch people without guns, saps, knives, etc. Carrying the gun wasn't as bad as throwing the first punch, whoever did that.
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And yes, the world would be a better place without guns.
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Murder Finger Eleven
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Shouldn't it be: "Does that mean that toasters don't toast toast, toast toasts toast?" ?
Boy, the word toast starts looking really damn weird when you read it a bunch.
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no, it should say "gunners kill people, toasters toast toast?
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Toasters toast bread.
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im so confused i just shot a loaf of bread to death
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toast doesn't kill toast, guns kill toast.
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Every time I read this thread title I think "boy am I glad I didn't watch that stupid fucking show"
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A Toast to Bread
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God sucks at planning.
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"I do wish that there was something, anything that I could have done that wouldn't have put me in the position where I had to take his life. "
o_0
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no shit I saw that molesting thing the other day. Yee-ouch. And God's Plan?
OMG.
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I wonder how long he was scratching his head over that last quote I put there.
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SHOW US HOW WE DRIVE DIFFERENTLY, COMEDIAN.
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Gotta be prepared if he comes back from the dead.
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Maybe he didn't realize it was Trayvon.
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I wish for grievous bodily harm to be brought against this disgusting pig of a cop.
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Holy fucking yuck.
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